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Articles: Devotion | | Conversion in any form is Destruction of Culture | |
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| ))Hindus do not have the bank balance which Moslems and Christians have
I would like to point out that Muslims and Christians in India are the most ill treated and suppressed people. They are still ill treated as untouchables. Economically Christians do not form the cream, most of the muslims are still in the lower rung of economics.
Regd beliefs of Christians. The Bible is taken as the firm authority. The authenticity of the bible in terms of geography history is proved beyond debate. Regd the truth of the Bible, Bible predicted many events of history accurately along with names of people involved in some instances, proving that it truly came from God. Depending on these premises Christian faith has a firm foundation.
There is a bulk of secular history corroborating the accuracy of the bible. Please refer to Josephus, tachichus, pliny who referred to Jesus and confirmed his miracles and crucifixion.
No body has ever been able to disprove that Jesus didnt rise from the dead. So all these are not stories. They are actual events. Everybody believes that Jesus never sinned. so we can say Jesus never lied. So when Jesus says I am the only way, only truth, only light, we better take seriously.
Coming to slavery. True slavery is a shameful event in the history. But the slavery in the ancient Judeo christian times is no way comparable to the recent history. Slaves were considered part of the family during the jewish eras. Masters would go out of their way of danger to save their slaves. Read about the Roman centurion in the Bible.
The instances of slaves in the Bible show slaves trying to satisfy their master not out of fear but out of devotion. This devotion doesnt come from fear but is only possible if the slave was well looked after by the master. Yes the recent slavery is shameful but to make this equal to Judeo era slavery is injustice and painting a wrong picture. If there are any verses in the bible contrary to this please be kind enough to point out.
Posted by: Mr. Apolo getics At: 25, Dec 2003 2:46:02 AM IST
Conversion in any form is Destruction of Culture
WHY?
1. when you convert some one, you are telling that person, YOUR BELIEFS, YOUR CULTURE etc are FALSE and MY RELIGION and MY CULTURE is TRUE.
2. When you convert a Hindu to Christianity, you are saying to Hindu, Jesus is the Only way and with out Jesus you are lost. THERE ARE NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR THAT STATEMENT. Jesus is the ONLY WAY is strictly a statement came out of belief ..that statement came out of Holy Bible.
3. You cannot read that statement in any of the Hindu scriptures.
4---CHRISTINAITY ORIGINATED FROM JUDAISM..You cannot read that statement in any of the JEWISH SCRIPTURES, even though Jesus is a Jew. Jews do not see jesus as God. Jews do not consider Jesus as SON OF GOD. Jews only see Jesus as a PROPHET OF GOD.
5--- ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY CAME FROM JUDAISM...You cannot read that statement in HOLY KORAN even though the name of Jesus Christ is mentioned many times in the Holy Koran. Muslims do not see jesus as God. Muslims do not consider Jesus as SON OF GOD. Muslims only see Jesus as a PROPHET OF GOD.
6...Jesus is God and Jesus is the ONLY WAY are strictly statements came out of people of FAITH. Nothing more. It is exactly like a Vaishnvates saying VISHNU IS THE ONLY WAY or Savaites saying SIVA IS THE ONLY WAY or Saktiates saying SAKTI IS THE ONLY WAY or Buddhists saying BUDDHA IS THE ONLY WAY.
7---my point is everything is based on beliefs NOT SCIENTIFIC FACTS.
Posted by: Mr. Ed Viswanathan Viswanathan At: 24, Jul 2003 5:36:35 AM IST
Thanks Shri KS Kiran Kumar for writing.. All your posts are thought provoking.I agree with you what you have written.
Like all other scriptures you have quoted, Gita also states the same thing. Lord Krishna said in the Bhagavad Gita "According to the differentiation of attributes (gunas) and actions (karma), I have created the four castes."
Stating that CASTE ACCORDING TO GUNAS not by birth is a very easy way of dealing with a very serious problem. Except Mahatma Gandhi and Vinoba Bhave nobody brought out concrete measures to deal with this problem.
You may ask, why it so important to bring up this issue?
REASONS ARE
1. We have a ton of Hindu scriptural statements condemning and ridiculing lower castes stating from Manu Smriti, and as such an important scripture like Bhagavad Gita should have dealt with Caste problem in a detailed manner. Instead Gita dealt with that in few statements.
2----If CASTE IS BY WORK, the Lord Krishna should have discussed CONCRETE WAYS FOR A CHANDALA OR UNTOUCHABLE TO BECOME A BRAHMIN. He did not do that. Instead Lord Krishna said "It is far better to perform one's svadharma (prescribed duties), than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous." Bhagavad-Gita 3:35....
That statement put the last nail on the coffin .. So no chance for a untouchable to become a Brahmin.
3----Out of hundreds of statements of Manu here is one that is sickening . "If a man of one birth (Sudra) hurls cruel words at one of the twice-born, his tongue should be cut out, for he was born from the rear-end. If he mentions their name or caste maliciously, a red-hot iron nail ten-fingers long should be thrust into his mouth. If he is so proud as to instruct priests about their duty, the king should have hot oil poured into his mouth and ears." --
4--Just telling a young girl who was raped, “don't worry about it” is the worst way to deal with the problem.. Similarly telling millions of poor lower castes people, CASTE IS BY GUNAS and NOT BY BIRTH is a very simple manner to deal with a serious problem. That raped Girl need physical and mental therapy. Similarly MILLIONS OF UNTOUCHABLE need concrete answers. We have a problem. We cannot ignore it.
5---I have not seen any scriptural decree or code or verse by which an UNTOUCHABLE can become a BRAHMIN. To be frank, there are no HINDU SCRIPTURAL RITUAL to achieve that .. There is NONE in Manusmriti or Yatnyavalkya Smriti or in Vedas or in Puranas.
6---Born as an UNTOUCHABLE die as an UNTOUCHABLE. None of the Sankaracharyas are addressing this issue. They feel ignoring the whole issue is the best answer and do what they did years ago.
WHY I WRITE ALL THESE?
I have thousands of e-mails a year from Indian students studying in western universities as well as foreigners [mainly Americans and Canadians ] who wanted to become a Hindu. I cannot give them an answer to the question of CASTE. I cannot answer any one who ask me IF I BECOME A HINDU, WHAT CASTE I BELONG TO?
I have decided to bring this issue for front in all my writings and seminars.
Posted by: Mr. Ed Viswanathan Viswanathan At: 2, Jul 2003 4:53:34 PM IST
I visited your web page and it is very nice. You are a great guy deep into lot of things. Bravo, keep it up. I do not agree with everything in Hinduism and caste system is one of them.
I have written a very detailed article on caste system on my web page [www.amaihindu.com] and so far nobody has written to me that my summation is wrong. Sage Manu ran away with caste system.
He has written so many rules and regulations concerning caste system in his Manu Smriti. According Manu, Brahmin is always right and a Shudra has to be punished for even for a simple offence.
The first indication of the caste system is outlined in the hymn to Purusha, the embodied human spirit, who is one-fourth creature and three-fourths eternal life in heaven.
The Brahmin was his mouth,
of both his arms was the Kshatriya.
His thighs became the Vaisya,
from his feet the Sudra was produced
The Brahmin caste was to be the priests and teachers; the Kshatriya represents the king, head of the warrior or Kshatriya caste; Vaisyas are the merchants, craftsmen, and farmers; and the Sudras are the workers.
According to Manu, only the first three upper castes were allowed to study Vedas and other holy scriptures. SHUDRAS were strictly forbidden from studying VEDAS and performing sacrifices.
Intermarriages between castes were forbidden and under no circumstances SHUDRAS were allowed to even dream of marrying other castes. ONLY WAY A SHUDRA CAN BE ELEVATED TO A HIGHER CASTE IS TO DIE AND REINCARNATE AGAIN AMONG THE UPPER CLASSES.
One great untouchable who became a prominent leader of modern India, Mr. Ambedker wrote: TO THE UNTOUCHABLES, HINDUISM IS A VERITABLE CHAMBER OF HORRORS.
Mahathma Gandhi said: UNTOUCHABILITY IS A CRIME AGAINST GOD AND MEN. Mahatma Gandhi called UNTOUCHABLES by the name HARIJANS meaning CHILDREN OF GOD. He fought for their emancipation and in 1949, soon after independence from Britain, Govt. of India made it a criminal offense to practice UNTOUCHABILITY
Caste system is a disgrace and it is a cancer on Hinduism. So many westerners want to embrace Hinduism and CASTE SYSTEM is one of the things that preventing them from doing so...
Let me boldly state that, if I WAS BORN AS AN UNTOUCHABLE, I will have no LOVE AFFAIR with Hinduism and will put down Hinduism, when ever I get a chance and will become a Buddhist or a Christian.
Posted by: Mr. Ed Viswanathan Viswanathan At: 27, Jun 2003 10:05:11 PM IST
Dear Mr. Kiran Kumar Jonnalagadda– I respect you and respect your adoration of Jesus Christ. I can never question your devotion to God. You may be more spiritually matured than myself and most people I have met in my life. I am not even fit to walk on the foot steps of millions of missionaries like Mother Theresa who are taking care of the “POOR & SICK” of this world. My hats are off to them.
My idea is to create an EXPLOSION OF THOUGHT in people. I want people to study WORLD HISTORY when they study their Holy scripture. If they do that, then they will never become a fanatic. They will know that much of what they are reading in their scriptures are JUST BELIEFS, nothing more. I warns Hindus about any fanatical beliefs on Hinduism in my book. Surprisngly no Hindu has chastisized me for that. One can say he does not believe in God and still boast that he is a Hindu.
I cannot see people can do that in other religions. If some one tells me that it is his belief Jesus is the only way, I respect that BELIEF....I have no right to question it. But if some one tells me that he can prove that, then I am forced to question it.
If some one tells me that he believes JESUS IS VIRGIN BIRTH, I respect that belief just like I like respect every one who states that they are VIRGIN BIRTHS in history
VIRGIN BIRTH IS NOT UNIQUE TO CHRISTIANITY.
1---If you read Egyptian history, you will see they describe that god “RA” was born from the side of his mother. In the famous book, RELIGION OF ANCIENT EGYPT, by Renouf, god RA tells his son RAMSEY III, " I am thy father; by me are begotten all thy members as divine; I have thy shape like the Mendesian god; I have begotten thee, impregnating thy venerable mother." May be that is why they call every Pharaoh as SON OF GOD.
2--- It is said, even the legendary NEBUCHADNEZZAR believed that god MARDUK entered his mother's womb and gave him life.
3-----HERCULES was considered to be the son of Greek god of gods, ZEUS. Zeus in fact said in Greek mythology, "THIS DAY A CHILD OF MINE WILL BE BORN IN THE PERSEUS RACE, WHO WILL BE THE MIGHTIEST OF ALL MEN" All Greek gods came out of different parts of the body than the normal place of female body.
4----MITHRAISM ---Up until the time of the Emperor Constantine, Mithraism was the religion of the Roman Empire, and Christianity was regarded as a cult of Judaism. Mithra was regarded as created by, yet co-equal with, the Supreme Deity. Mithraist were Trinitarian, kept Sunday as their day of worship, and their chief festivals were what we know of as Christmas and Easter.
5--Long before the birth of Jesus Christ, Mithra was said to have been born of a virgin mother, in a cave, at the time of Christmas, and died on a cross at Easter. Baptism was practiced, and the sign of the cross was made on the foreheads of all newly-baptized converts
6--- As per Hindu scriptures, ancient saints called PRAJAPATHIS were born from the mind of God. Last Parjapathi, Daksha Prajapathi father of Sati, consort of Lord Siva was born out of the thumb of Lord Brahma...Those who are born out of thin air is called “Swayam Bhu” in Hindu scriptures.
7---–It is said Lord Krishna was born after Lord Vishnu descended into Princess Devaki.. In Hindu Mahabhagavata, Lord God said: "I will incarnate in the house of YADU, after the mortal birth from the womb of Devaki.....Time has come for me to display my mystical powers and save the righteous from the unrighteous."
8--—According to Buddhist texts, Lord Buddha was born from the right side of his virgin mother Maya after the God descended on her. The power descended in the form of a white elephant. According to Chinese Buddhist texts, that Holy power was called "SHING-SHIN”
9---—As per Zoroastrian religion, the founder Zoroaster had a virgin mother. Plato has written Zoroaster is the son of Oromasades, the Persian name for God. Thus Zoroaster is came to known as SON OF GOD.
MY POINT.... All these are BELIEFS. We have no scientific or historical evidence to prove or disapprove one way or another... So it is better for Christians and Moslems to respect Hindu beliefs like the way respect their beliefs...
Dear Mr. Kiran Kumar Jonnalagadda, unluckily I won't be able to discuss with you any matter on e-mails since I am already getting a ton of mail every month after I published my book [www.amaiahindu.com]...
Posted by: Mr. Ed Viswanathan Viswanathan At: 26, Jun 2003 9:58:49 PM IST
Mr. Guy thanks for ur comment... I think it is better to think a while before commenting... I never intended to convert or hurt anybody through my comment. I just wanted to clarify the misunderstandings. if u dont like it u need not read, but u r not having any right to command other not to do.. if u feel i am wrong say in what way i am wrong... hope that u can understand...
Dear sir,
Thank u for ur respect. I hereby dont want to discuss the things here. but as a child of god i am having a burden to clarify the things to u. so i feel it as a pleasure to clarify things with u personally thru personal messages if u r interested. because people r thinking this as a religious arguement.
Posted by: Jonnalagadda Jonnalagadda At: 26, Jun 2003 2:01:20 PM IST
Thank you Mr. Guy Cute, Ms. Lakshmi Prasanthi Uppalapati and Mr. Kiran Kumar Jonnalagadda
Mr. Kiran I respect you and respect your statements. But if you study world religions like I did you will have a different opinion.
With all due respect and regards to you and all those kind Christians who take care of the poor and sick I am forced to give you details of Christianity..What am I writing is part of history.
First let us define Culture.
1----result of SLOWLY DEVELOPED THINKING PROCESS IN MEN.
2----Developed on river banks.
3----Have centuries of development
4----DO NOT CONVERT OTHERS TO THEIR RELIGION
5—no proper hierarchy
6—FROM WHICH ORGANIZED RELIGIONS CAME.
Examples: Hinduism and Judaism
First let us define Religion?
1. Have a founder
2 Have set of rules and regulations.
3. Have just one Holy Book
4. Have a hierarchy
5. Believe THEIR WAY IS THE ONLY WAY
6 always feel others are wrong and wanted to CONVERT OTHERS TO THEIR RELIGION.
7 Kill or ex-communicate any one who does not believe what hierarchy believe.
8 profess MONOPOLY OF TRUTH AND GOD.
Examples: Christianity and Islam
SOME FACTS ABOUT CHRISTIANITY
1. Jesus was born a Jew.
2. Jesus never intend to start a religion.
3. Jesus said I came to make Judaism better.
4. It was the zealot apostles who started Christianity.
5. Believe it or not there is NO WORD Christianity in the Holy Bible.
6. Almost all Jewish prophets are revered by Christians as well as Moslems.
7. Christians adore Old Testament which is actually part of Judaism.
8. Christian ethical laws are the continuation of Jewish ethical laws.
9. Everything in Christianity is amalgamation of Jewish, Celtic, Roman, Greek concepts and ideas.
10---Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus nor easter. No Christian theologian or historian document the birth of Jesus on December 25th. DAY, MONTH, YEAR of birth of Jesus is still an enigma. Both are pagan rituals made Christian by Roman emperor Constantine.
WHO CREATED MODERN CHRISTIANITY? Roman emperor Constantine and St. Paul .
There is no word TRINITY in the Holy Bible.
1----TRINITARIAN WORSHIP was started by Roman emperor Constantine in the very first council Nicene Council [May 20, 325].
2---The person who was dead-against RAISING JESUS CHRIST equal to Father, was ARIUS, a bishop from Alexandria. During 320 A.D. he fought a fierce theological battle. Arius thought it was blasphemous to think Christ is divine in nature.
3---Arius said the mere fact, Christ called God as FATHER, makes Christ second to God and not equal to God. The controversy became very heated and finally emperor Constantine called Nicene Council to settle Arius controversy on Christ.
4---It was in the Nicene Council [May 20, 325] that finally CHRIST WAS RAISED TO THE 2ND PERSON OF TRINITY. It was at the same Council, HOLY GHOST [HOLY SPIRIT] came into prominence. Arius and his teachings became an anathema and he was banished from the church.
5---Catholic Encyclopedia admits: THE DOCTRINE OF TRINITY IS NOT TAUGHT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. THE REVELATION OF THE TRUTH OF THE TRIUNE LIFE OF GOD WAS FIRST MADE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
6--In fact, the only place in the Gospels where three divine personalities of God is explicitly mentioned is in the St.Matthew's account of Christ's last command to the apostles, GO THEREFORE, AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF FATHER, AND THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT [MAT 28:19].
7---SCHAFF-HERZOG ENCYCLOPEDIA, states TRINITY was not established until 363 A.D. It adds TRINITY is the result of three centuries of doctrinal development.
8----The New Catholic Encyclopedia adds that devotion to Trinity had begun in monasteries at Aniane and Tours, in the 8th century.
9--Jehovah Witness on their part is very critical of TRINITY. They have a booklet available by name SHOULD YOU BELIEVE IN TRINITY attacking the whole concept of Trinity. According to them FATHER ALONE IS GOD - which is an impersonal force and CHRIST IS AN ANGEL CREATED BY GOD.
SLAVERY IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE HOLY BIBLE:
1---I always wondered how church going, loving caring Americans had no problem to forcefully bring millions of Africans from Africa and make them slaves...
2---I asked myself what about the Christian love and compassion. How can they do such horrible things to human beings. How can any one treat human beings worse than animals........
3---ANSWER CAME FROM HOLY BIBLE. I found slavery was sanctioned by Holy Bible. That is why a very devout Christian like Christopher Columbus had no problem making American Indians slaves. That was the reason why devout Spanish had no problem making Mayans slaves.
4---Good loving, caring, church going Christians considered it quite appropriate for one person to own another human being as a piece of property.
5---Throughout the colonial period, opposition to slavery among white Americans was virtually nonexistent.
6---Jefferson Davis, President of Confederate States of America said : "Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts."
7---During 19th century , Rev. R. Furman, D.D., a Baptist pastor from South Carolina proclaimed " The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example."
8---If you read world history you will see that church has supported slavery . During 595 AD, Pope Gregory dispatched a priest to Britain to purchase Pagan boys to work as slaves on church estates. The same Pope also wrote , " "Slaves should be told...not [to] despise their masters and recognize that they are only slaves."
9---During 1537 AD Pope Paul III wrote "Native Americans were not to be enslaved. Only hostile non-Christians, captured in just wars could become slaves.
10--In 1548 same Pope said that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were to be returned to their owners for punishment.
11--By the late 17th century, the institution of slavery was a integral part catholic church. Church only placed restrictions on the purchase and owning of slaves: "They had to be non-Christian who imported slaves with expulsion from the denomination."
I stand behind my argument that Holy Bible supported slavery.
At the same time my hats are off to Christians for eradication of slavery.
WHAT IS POINT? I am stating that all cultures and all religions are the result of SLOWLY DEVELOPED THINKING PROCESS IN MEN and nobody has monopoly on God or Truth. Vedas were written by men. So too 66 books of the Holy Bible. I feel very funny when some one argue with me that their holy book was written by God. Of course there is nothing wrong to believe that, but to argue about it in a market place is does not make any sense at all.
Posted by: Mr. Ed Viswanathan Viswanathan At: 26, Jun 2003 4:30:08 AM IST
First of all I wanted to make clear that Christianity is not a religion. It is The way of following Christ and his father Lord Jahovah. In Bible it is written to "follow ur god" but not to "follow ur religion". Scriptures are not like ordinary story books. There are great secrets hidden in them. Each time u go through them with the true spirit and a zeal to know lord will talk to you through them and will reveal the secrets in them.
("Conversion of Hindus in India to Islam and Christianity is the cruel destruction of the culture of India.")
What is a culture? and what is a religion? I cant understand, how the conversion of religion can destruct the culture?
("But in India, every one is allowed to convert any Hindu into any other religion forcefully or other wise.")
Never in India any Hindu is being physically hurted to convert his religion. But we can see many physical harrasments on Christians in India to obey that Jesus is not true god n not to preach gospel, and many people were being thrown out of from families because of conversion.
("Most of the conversions in India are rice converts")
Jesus never told to turn people towards him by offering eartly pleasures... In spite he urged to preach his gospel and serve people with love. He repeatedly warned his people to be careful of the false prophecy in his name n his father's name. Those missionaries whoever are converting people by offering earthly pleasures are eligible for the word false prophets. Do u think that it will be a real conversion. Can u really win a soul in this way? He told to his preach his word with burden n sprirt n truth, but not the false prophesy. The conversion or the winning of the soul should come from the heaven above. If u r doing it on ur own trails without following the word of god menas u r not fulfilling the will of god. So this process of rice conversion is not fromm the god. It is man made process to bring blame and shame to the holy name of the god.
("At the same time, Please remember that Slavery was part and parcel of the Holy Bible. Slavery was sanctioned by Old Testament of the Holy Bible. Biblical verses such as Genesis 9:25-27, Leviticus 25:46, Exodus 21:1-6; Deut. 15:17; Exodus 21:7-9; support slavery. ")
U r right that these verses talk about slavery.. but we have to read the verses above and the verses following the verses u quoted.
Genesis 9:18-27
18. The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.)
19. These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
20. Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [1] to plant a vineyard.
21. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.
22. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside.
23. But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.
24. When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,
25. he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."
26. He also said, "Blessed be the LORD , the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.
27 May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave."
In this way Canaan was being cursed and because of this curse all his breed became slaves.
("Moses did not condemn slavery.")
Moses does not want to make slaves to be slaves for their life time. That is why he commanded this for freeing of slaves.
12. If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free.
13. And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed.
14. Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you.
15. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.
16. But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and your family and is well off with you,
17. then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.
18. Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because his service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do.
Dear sir (Ed Viswanathan), I posted these not to hurt u or anybody. Just I wanted to clarify the misunderstandings. I am having answers to every point on this passage. But because of time shortage I am unable to post all of them at a time.
(To be contd...)
Posted by: Jonnalagadda Jonnalagadda At: 25, Jun 2003 6:15:23 PM IST
I completely approve your each and every sentence in this article.
In fact, I too wrote an article called 'Christianity - Conversions'.
http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?AuthorID=7336&id=4858
The following is the link to my article, 'Common Civil Code in India'. This article is in this site also.
http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?AuthorID=7336&id=4859
Posted by: Ms. Prasanthi Uppalapati At: 25, Jun 2003 9:43:24 AM IST
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