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General Forum: Current 'Affairs' | | Secularism in India | |
| If you knew it, why didn't you put it? If you have all those stuff, how dare you call BJP as Communal Govt/Party in your newspaper? You could never justify yourself.
Posted by: Bahud♥♥rapu Baatasaari At: 1, Jun 2004 6:21:55 PM IST
"no one religion should be given preferential status".
By an Indian. But not being practiced in India. How pathetic? No secularism in India, yet some parties were called as Communal / Hindu parties by some ignorant illeterate people. I pity on them.
Posted by: Bahud♥♥rapu Baatasaari At: 1, Jun 2004 5:57:33 PM IST
It doesnt mean I support all the points the in the text posted below .. but I am definitely for Equality for all irrespective of religion, caste or region .. I
still would be interested in knowing why Congress reportedly opposed the Bill that defined scularism as a concpet that treats every religion equally!!! (I didnt hear about this incident before reading the posted article)
Posted by: Malakpet Rowdy At: 31, May 2004 7:24:19 PM IST
PUBLISHED ON REDIFF AND AVAILABLE ON http://esamskriti.com/html/readcont/Secular_rediff.doc
This might answer veva's question
In India - Was the word Secular always part of the preamble of our constitution? No.
The words Socialist & Secular were added by the Constitution (42nd Amendment) Act, 1976 i.e. by then PM Smt Indira Gandhi. However, both these words were not defined.
An attempt was made to define the word “Secularism” vide constitution amendment bill 45 moved by Morarji Desai’s Government in which two BJP stalwarts Atal B Vajpayee and L K Advani were ministers. “Secular Republic” was defined to mean a “republic” in which there is equal respect for all religions. However, that portion of the bill, which related to the definition of secularism, was omitted. Although the bill was passed in the Lok Sabha where the Janata Party had a majority it was voted down by the Congress that had a majority in the Rajya Sabha.
Now what does the word “Secular” mean?
1.The Concise Oxford Dictionary (Tenth Edition) defines “secular” as “not religious, sacred or spiritual” and refers to “secularism” as one of the derivates of “secular”.
Dr Radhakrishnan, ex-President wrote, “When India is said to be a secular state, it does not mean that we reject the relevance of religion to life. We hold that no one religion should be given preferential status”. (Recovery of Faith page 184).
Donald E. Smith, Professor of Political Science in Pennsylvania University provided what he regarded as a working definition of a secular state. “The secular State is a State which guarantees individual and corporate freedom of religion, deals with the individual as a citizen irrespective of his religion, is not constitutionally connected to a particular religion, nor does it seek to promote or interfere with religion”. (refer book, India a Secular State.)
2.The Supreme Court judgment on the Ayodhya Acquisition Act, 1993, has some thoughts on the subject. Quote All India Reporter, 1995, S.C. 1-1376 -
• M C Setalwad in Patel Memorial Lectures – 1985 referring to the Indian concept of Secularism stated thus: “The coming of the partition emphasizes the great importance of secularism, Notwithstanding the partition, a large Muslim minority, constituting a tenth of the population of India, continued to be citizens of India. In the circumstances, a secular constitution of independent India, under which all religions could enjoy equal freedom and all citizens equal rights, and which could weld together into one nation the different religious communities, became inevitable”. Do all religions have equal rights? If that were so every citizen must be subject to the same laws and all places must be either within or out of government control.
• Ex-Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Mr. Ahmadi J: “Notwithstanding the fact that the words Socialist and Secular were added in the Preamble of the Constitution in 1976 by the 42nd amendment, the concept of secularism was very much embedded in our constitutional philosophy. The term ‘Secular’ has advisedly not been defined presumably because it is a very elastic term not capable of a precise definition and perhaps best left undefined. By this amendment what was implicit was made explicit”. When a concept as important as Secularism is not defined it is subject to misinterpretation & abuse.
In West -
United States - The word “secular” is not to be found in the Constitution of U.S.A. But the doctrine is embodied in it. Section 3 of the Constitution reads, “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States”. The key words here are “no religious tests” shall be required to hold an office. Moreover all American citizens are subject to one law and unlike India the state does not exercise excessive control over the religious affairs of the majority community. The Constitution states that a state-aided school cannot provide religious education.
England - Here there is a close alliance between the Church and State. The Church became independent of the Pope in the 16th century and is the official Church of England. The monarch is the head of state (equivalent to the Indian President) and head of Church. Though there is religious freedom, the Church of England has a special status inasmuch as the monarch of England must join in communion with the Church of England. A Catholic or anyone who marries a Catholic cannot be the monarch of England. Thus England is not a secular state in concept but may well be in practice for e.g. it has one law for its citizens.
Germany - In Germany Government and Religion are two separate things and must be kept separate. The State has to deal with people irrespective of their faith or religion. All Laws are same for every citizen. There are no special laws for special interests of minorities/majority. Two hundred years ago the Church owned all the land. To the Germans secularism meant take away all land from the church and handing it over to local administration.
In Germany every Christian pays income tax to the Church of up to 9%. If one is not a Christian, he can disclose it and this amount will not be charged. Even a Christian can decide not to pay this amount but then he has small social problems like no priest of any church will arrange his marriage in any church. To avoid social problems like these most Christians prefer to pay the tax.
In India the BJP is called a nationalist Hindu party or a communal/fascists one. The strongest political parties in Germany are called Christian Democrats and Social Christians. But does anyone call these Christian parties extremists?
France - The process of secularization started after 1787. It meant all non-Catholics (save the Jews) were freed from civil & political disabilities. The Constitution of 1891 abolished the disabilities of the Jews. As time passed the State took over from the Church the registration of births, deaths & marriages, education system was overhauled and put under the authority of the State etc. A law of separation of State & Church was passed in 1905.
So Secularism in most of Europe essentially meant separation of the Church from the State.
In Muslim World
Turkey - How did Kamal Pasha secularize Turkey in 1920’s? He encouraged the wearing of European dress, all monasteries and religious houses were confiscated by the State, Muslim religious schools were abolished and State non-religious schools were started, Shariat Law was replaced by Swiss Civil Code, the Italian Penal Code and German Commercial Code, Polygamy was abolished, A society for defence of women’s rights was established, purdah was abolished and women were persuaded to enter various professions, Latin script replaced Arabian script and Turkish language was purged of Arabic and Persian words.
Two points. One Secularization of Turkey essentially meant taking it closer to the Western model. Two the ban on religious schools and replacement of the Shariat Law meant it separated state from religion. The others like women’s rights – purdah are not linked to secularism but were necessary to liberalize society.
Now compare Turkish secularism with the Indian one. Religious schools, purdah and polygamy exist.
Arab World – the entire Middle East allows little or no freedom to religions other than Islam. How many Hindu temples exist in Saudi Arabia or U.A.E.?
Southeast Asia – inspite of being Muslim majority countries Malaysia & Indonesia allow Hindus & Christians more religious freedom than the Middle East. It is perhaps, due to centuries old Indian influence. Three examples. One Diwali is a national holiday in Malaysia. To see photographs of Diwali celebrations in Kuala Lumpur http://www.esamskriti.com/html/new_photo.asp?subcatid=59. Two some Indonesian notes have an image of Lord Ganesha is imprinted on them. To see currency http://www.esamskriti.com/html/new_inside.asp?cat_name=history&cid=964&sid=159 (go to bottom of the page after you click on this link). Three the national emblem of Indonesia is Garuda, the vehicle of Lord Vishnu.
http://esamskriti.com/html/new_inside.asp?cat_name=history&sid=161&count1=1&cid=977
Do these celebrations or symbols of Indian influence make them communal or any less Muslim majority states?
Analysis – If secularism is separation of State from Religion then:
• The words used by Dr Radhakrishnan above are ‘no one religion should be given preferential status’. In India Muslims are given grants for undertaking the Haj etc. Giving grants to the economically backward is necessary but is not using religion as a basis for doling out grants giving preferential status to the followers of one religion as compared to another.
• Donald E. Smith referred to above has in his definition of secularism said “The secular State is a State which is not constitutionally connected to a particular religion, nor does it seek to promote or interfere with religion”. Recently the Maharashtra government passed an Ordinance for taking over the management of the Shirdi Sai Baba temple trust. Why must the government be involved in managing Hindu temples only?
• Sandhya Jain wrote an article titled ‘Nationalization of Hindu Temples’ in the Daily Pioneer, October 7,2003. These numbers relate to Karnataka state. “In 2000, the temples generated a revenue of Rs. 69.96 crores, but received only Rs. 13.75 crores for maintenance. The madrasa-Haj subsidy rose to Rs. 35 crores. In 2002, the State received Rs. 72 crores as revenue, returned Rs. 10 crores for temple maintenance, and granted Rs. 50 crores for madrasas and Rs. 10 crores for churches”.
• Article 27 of the Indian Constitution clearly states that ‘no person shall be compelled to pay any taxes, the proceeds of which are specifically appropriated in payment of expenses or promotion or maintenance of any religion or religious denomination”. As the numbers in the preceding para show when Hindus give donations to temples they are unknowingly & indirectly contributing towards promotion of madrassa education & churches. Such contributions can be construed to be a voluntary tax.
• By virtue of payment of a tax to the Church has not Germany mixed up state with religion. In which case should it be labeled a communal state?
What we see in the name of secularism is minority appeasement plain & simple.
Ideally the attributes of a Secular State should be -
• Equality of all citizens meaning a Uniform Civil Code.
• Economic / social status not religion to be a basis of government aid.
• No State Aid to institutions that impart religious education.
• Followers of every religion be allowed to manage their religious & charitable institutions with no state control. However, all of them would need to operate within a broad framework of rules that are applicable to followers of all religions.
• One man one wife is the rule for all.
• Followers of every religion to practice family planning as excessive population is eating into India’s progress.
• Every Indian women must have the same marriage and property rights.
• Every citizen can practice his religion but fraudulent conversions be banned.
• Sentiment of majority community towards the cow and against its slaughter was incorporated in articles 48 and be honored.
Two of the most commonly used words by the media today are Secularism & Minorities. Ironically the Indian Constitution does not define either of them. Wonder what the founder fathers of the Constitution had in mind!
Posted by: Malakpet Rowdy At: 31, May 2004 7:17:24 PM IST
Thanks mate! @Malakpet Rowdy.
There is no fight here. Fight can be between two equals. I've little sense.
Well, thats what I have asked. Every one talks about Godra, none about Sabarmati. Why? Are we so scared of nothing? If I write little more on this, I can't type anything other than bUtulu
Posted by: Bahud♥♥rapu Baatasaari At: 31, May 2004 4:07:49 PM IST
Bata and Vacha -- Do u guys need a refree?
Referring to BobbiliPuli's post ..
HOW DARE U CALL CONGRESS NOT SECULAR - They have an alliance with IUML .. dont u think an alliance with parites like IUML, MIM (May be Lashkar e Toiba and Al Qaida in future) would qulaify them as Hardcore Secularists?
As someone in the other thread said, if they can get their policies defined by ppl like Kuldip Nayar, Praful Bidwai and Arundhati Roy, they can even call themselves "Hardcore Patriots"
I'm yet to see any condemnation from the so called communal and secular parties reg. killing of Indians in Saudi. Are they scared that it will anger IUML and MIM and they could lose their secular image by condemning Al Qaida?
Sorry if I sound stupid but just couldnt resist typing this
Posted by: Malakpet Rowdy At: 31, May 2004 3:24:26 PM IST
enduku nOTikochchinaTTu kUstAvU vEvA?
nEnevarimIda burada challAnu cheppu?
nI mIda nEnu burada challutunnAnA? nuvvEmaina gangi gOvuvA? burada challitE muriki kAvaDAniki? okavELa nEnu nI mIda buradE challutunnAnanukO, nIkEmainA kAstintainA nashTamundA? kashTam kaligindA? mArpochchindA? lEdE, enta burada challitE mAtram Emi lAbham ? samudramlO kAki reTTanta.
Posted by: Bahud♥♥rapu Baatasaari At: 31, May 2004 2:38:40 PM IST
/*I think this piece of paper is enough to get a Doctorate*/
I am always confused with your statements. Is this a compliment or you are just being sarcastic?
Posted by: Mr. Bobbili Puli At: 29, May 2004 1:10:01 AM IST
I think this piece of paper is enough to get a Doctorate.
Posted by: Mr. M Kumar N At: 28, May 2004 8:31:55 PM IST
DEFINITION OF SECULARISM.
Secularism means not favouring any particular religion.Democracy means for the people by the people. This means whatever majority people wants will be implemented.
Do you think Congress and Left parties are Secular and Democratic? An educated person with even half the brain as the size of a peanut can sense that Congress and Left support Muslims and are biased against Hindus. They are not scared of Hindus because they are not communal. They are scared of Muslims because they are communal.
That means they are unsecular and undemocratic because they are not respecting the sentiments of the majority people. If a Muslim candidate contests in an election they would vote for him no matter what party he belongs to. Why don't you fools name MIM as a Religious party?
In fact the entire media is unsecular and undemocratic.If you take referendum from people 90% of Indians will favour Uniform civil code.80% of the people do not favour Haj subsidy. 90% of the people want Kashmir Pandits to be protected in their homeland.In 1947, 90% of people did not want to divide the country. In 1984 thousands of innocent Sikhs have been butchered. If it was a Muslim who killed Indira Gandhi do you think they would have killed the Muslims?
All the above undemocratic and unsecular issues happened when Congress was in power.Do you call Congress as secular and democratic?
Posted by: Mr. Bobbili Puli At: 28, May 2004 7:26:37 PM IST
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